AoM Retold DM Patch Alpha Version

[Nakamura]

Hi all,

With everyone having experienced Retold DM for a good amount of time now, we have all noted a handful of trends that justify a community-made balance mod again:

• Long search times and frequent low quality matches in ranked
• Hyper-aggression is too strong, due to the larger armies and weak defenses
• Greek dominance, with many other gods needing significant help
• Map balance issues (TCs particularly) can often decide games
• Changes to standard mode often not suiting the needs of DM

This is not to say that people shouldn't play ranked without the mod, but if we can have a better experience in custom games between core community members, then why not build something?

This initial version will be experimental, and rapidly iterated, not aimed towards tournament environments until we have mirrored maps and a more stable state.

Here's the initial proposal below. Please discuss.

General:

• Tower damage: 4->5
• Repair rates: -20%
• Villager vs siege bonus damage: x2 -> x1.5
• Relics not affecting DM removed
• Mirrored maps implemented for the following DM map set: Alfheim, Blue Lagoon, Elysium, Erebus, Marsh, Megalopolis, Savannah, Tundra (this will be a slower process)

Greek:

• Sentinel recast cost: 50 -> 30 favor
• Pestilence radius: 50 -> 40
• Pestilence recast cost: 50 -> 80 favor
• Pestilence CD: 120s -> 180s
• Curse resources converted: 800 -> 1200
• Divine Blood build rate increase effect: +15% -> +10%
• Hydra favor cost: 28 -> 25
• Hydra pierce armor: 50% -> 60%
• Manticore cost: 300 wood, 25 favor -> 250 wood, 22 favor
• Fortress arrow damage: 9 -> 10
• Polyphemus crush dmg: 15 -> 25
• Bellerophon HP: 500 -> 450
• Medusa cost: 250 wood 23 favor-> 300 wood 25 favor
• Face of the Gorgon range buff on Medusa: 5 -> 4 
• Argive Patronage Myrmidon auto-train time: 40s -> 60s
• Colossus favor cost: 35 -> 30

Egyptians:

• Set's free animal spawns: food-heavy animals replaced with combat animals
• Set monument discount effect: -5% -> -10%
• Isis monument god power blocking radius: 25 -> 30
• Serpents now controllable
• Serpent bonus vs Villagers: x0.1 -> none
• Serpent damage: 5 -> 9
• Siege tower crush armor: 60% -> 75%
• Mercenary HP degradation: -2.5/s -> -1/s
• Mercenary train time: 1s -> 2s
• Mercenary Cavalry HP degradation: -4/s -> -2/s
• Mercenary Cavalry train time: 2s -> 3s
• Migdol Stronghold arrow damage: 8 -> 9
• Locust Swarm recast cost: 75 -> 100
• Roc HP: 600 -> 350
• Roc speed: 5 -> 4.3
• Roc cost: 150 gold, 5 favor -> 250 gold, 20 favor
• Roc can perform hot pickups, landing ability removed
• Sun-dried Mud Brick build time effect: -25% -> -10%
• Citadel CD: 30s -> 180s
• Ancestors recast cost: 100 -> 75 favor
• Scorpion Man HP: 500 -> 600
• Nebty: now affects Son of Osiris
• Phoenix hack damage: 40 -> 60
• Phoenix egg hatch time: 60s -> 30s

Norse:

• Spy recast cost: 60 -> 15 favor
• Gullinbursti recast cost: 300 -> 200 favor
• Healing spring recast cost: 100 -> 80 favor
• Healing spring cost escalation: 150 -> 20 favor
• Draugr divine damage: 2 -> 3
• Ydalir: Portable Rams are 25% cheaper
• Safeguard HP effect now works on Hill Forts
• Thurisaz Rune regeneration rate: 0.25/s -> 1/s
• Walking Woods cost escalation: 50 -> 20 favor
• Walking Woods HP: 240 -> 400
• Walking Woods hack damage: 16 -> 30
• Mountain Giant pierce armor: 40% -> 50%
• Battle Boar favor cost: 27 -> 24
• Godi bonus vs myth units: x5.5 -> x6
• Huskarl pierce armor: 60% -> 70%
• Hill Fort arrow damage: 7 -> 8
• Ballista crush damage: 12 -> 15
• Nidhogg HP: 2500 -> 3000
• Nidhogg can be healed
• Nidhogg bonus vs myth units: none -> x2
• Nidhogg damage: 40 hack, 40 crush -> 60 hack, 60 crush
• Fafnir gold donation: 300 -> 50
• Fimbulwinter: now blocks other Fimbulwinters while active
• Fimbulwinter duration: 36s -> 45s
• Fenris Wolf pack boost cap: 5 -> 8
• Fire Giant population cost: 5 -> 4
• Fire Giant favor cost: 28 -> 25
• Fire Giant HP: 600 -> 800
• Granite Blood HP effect on Fire Giants: +40% -> +20%
• Inferno CD: 180s -> 240s

Atlantean:

• Spider Lair CD: 90s -> 60s
• Spider Lair cost escalation: 3 -> 2 favor
• Carnivora: is now healable
• Carnivora recast cost: 20 -> 10
• Valor recast cost: 1 -> 0
• Traitor cost escalation: 15 -> 5
• Traitor CD: 180 -> 120s
• Behemoth HP: 650 -> 800
• Rheia's Gift: free Behemoth spawns every 3 minutes at the temple
• Orichalcum Mail: now affects Infantry as well
• Lance of Stone: Contarius Heroes gain x2 bonus vs buildings
• Palace arrow damage: 8.5 -> 9
• Tartarian Gate hack armor: 30% -> 40%
• Tartarian Gate HP: 2500 -> 3000
• Tartarian Gate spawn limit: 7 -> 10
• Vortex recast cost: 0 -> 100
• Implode CD: 60 -> 240s
• Implode pull intensity growth: 0.1/s -> 0.08/s 
• Argus acid explosion divine damage: 50 -> 75

[Phenomenon]

Thank you for the suggestions and list Naka! I'll be playing devils advocate on some of these things, not that i necessarily agree with something.

Reasons for a balance mod:

I've heard a lot of chatter from the main dozen or so people that play about not wanting a DM patch because it might divide the community. Personally, I don't agree with this, you can always play off patch if you want including ranked. But, it would suck having the most competitive patch be something that is not playable on the ladder.

Personally i don't see the mode as being too hyper aggressive right now. That could be a playstyle thing from me. I'm sure my average game vs top 40 people as a whole all together is about 20 minutes.

I'm also not sure about Greek dominance in regards to factions. I think Eggy as a whole is better right now, with Greek slightly behind. Norse needs some help as well as Atty a small amount.

Santa List Item: I know it's probably later down the pipeline, but mirrored maps.

General:

• Tower damage: 4->5 (I could see this being higher still)
• Repair rates: -20% (agree)
• Relics not affecting DM removed (agree)
• Mirrored maps implemented for the following DM map set: Alfheim, Blue Lagoon, Elysium, Erebus, Marsh, Megalopolis, Savannah, Tundra (this will be a slower process) (I think there are 4-5 more maps that are great that should in there, Giza etc.)

 

 

Greek:

• Sentinel recast cost: 50 -> 30 favor (agree)
• Bolt recast cost: 55 -> 40 favor (disagree, we need to be careful about creating a complete anti Set god)
• Pestilence radius: 50 -> 40 (what was the old radius, i feel like even this is not enough of a reduction)
• Curse recast cost: 125 -> 80 favor (i would rather see the total amount of hitpoints converted go up then a reduction in favor)
• Fortress arrow damage: 9 -> 10 (think it can be higher)
• Polyphemus crush dmg: 15 -> 25 (agree)
• Bellerophon HP: 500 -> 450 (disagree, again we need to be careful about nerfing greek hero's - they're the only civ group that has a limited amount to fight myth with)
• Medusa cost: 250 wood 23 favor-> 300 wood 25 favor (disagree, make medusa cost 300 gold - and keep the current favor cost)
• Medusa pierce armor: 70% -> 60% (agree)
• Face of the Gorgon range buff on Medusa: 5 -> 4 (agree)
• Argive Patronage Myrmidon auto-train time: 40s -> 60s (agree, but heph still needs buffed more to put people to a decision)
• Colossus favor cost: 35 -> 30 (be careful here, with hades and pose that's fine, but zeus myth is -1 population and zeus gains 20% more favor - this is a recipe for people to spam them ESO style. I'd like to see them cost more if we're going to do this)

 

I will finish my input in the next few days on the other civ groups, and things I've noticed.

[Nakamura]

Thanks Pheno! Here's some quick thoughts:

11 minutes ago, Phenomenon said:

Tower damage: 4->5 (I could see this being higher still)

Maybe, but let's try this first. All the upgrades (guard tower, ballista tower, armory upgrades) will stack with this, and towers shoot 2 arrows. The value I list is the base one.

12 minutes ago, Phenomenon said:

Santa List Item: I know it's probably later down the pipeline, but mirrored maps.

This is going to be incredibly complex and I'll be outsourcing the work, so yes it will be coming later.

13 minutes ago, Phenomenon said:

Bolt recast cost: 55 -> 40 favor (disagree, we need to be careful about creating a complete anti Set god)

Completely forgot about that. Thanks, removing this.

13 minutes ago, Phenomenon said:

Pestilence radius: 50 -> 40 (what was the old radius, i feel like even this is not enough of a reduction)

I think the old one was 30, but it used to completely shot down production. The current one just increases training time, so I don't want to kill the god power without trying smaller steps.

15 minutes ago, Phenomenon said:

Curse recast cost: 125 -> 80 favor (i would rather see the total amount of hitpoints converted go up then a reduction in favor)

Agreed, let's try that. 800 -> 1200 resources converted as a first test.

15 minutes ago, Phenomenon said:

Fortress arrow damage: 9 -> 10 (think it can be higher)

Going to be careful like with the towers. 3 projectiles and stacking armory techs again.

16 minutes ago, Phenomenon said:

Bellerophon HP: 500 -> 450 (disagree, again we need to be careful about nerfing greek hero's - they're the only civ group that has a limited amount to fight myth with)

With Zeus, you have Medusa also. Bellerophon is the most buffed greek hero in Retold. He gained over a hundred HP and a huge amount of divine damage.

17 minutes ago, Phenomenon said:

Medusa cost: 250 wood 23 favor-> 300 wood 25 favor (disagree, make medusa cost 300 gold - and keep the current favor cost)

Each minor god's myth units use a different resource in Retold, would like to keep the convention where possible.

18 minutes ago, Phenomenon said:

Colossus favor cost: 35 -> 30 (be careful here, with hades and pose that's fine, but zeus myth is -1 population and zeus gains 20% more favor - this is a recipe for people to spam them ESO style. I'd like to see them cost more if we're going to do this)

Hades and Poseidon also can get the extra favor via Aphrodite, so not too concerned about this aspect. There's plenty of counters (divine damage, mass heroes, frost giants, medusa etc).

[Phenomenon]

Affirmative on all of you're replies. 

Suggestions for Greek:

• Reduce Manticore favor cost, even with the change to medusa you mentioned they're equal
• Hydra Buff?
• Pestilence probably needs the radius as what you said and also a tad more expensive on recasts.
• One of the techs for Ares needs tapered down, the minor is just too good.
• Either divine blood or golden apples needs nerfed slightly, aphro having both of those as well as a buffed curse would make her too good. I like the buffed curse, so i would combat that with a nerf to one of the two techs if i were you.
• Shafts of plague is probably too good

 

 

[Nakamura]

On 12/24/2024 at 5:11 AM, Phenomenon said:

Reduce Manticore favor cost, even with the change to medusa you mentioned they're equal

On 12/24/2024 at 5:11 AM, Phenomenon said:

Hydra Buff?

Agreed, there needs to be a reason to make both Manticores and Hydras. A small favor reduction should help both, and we can keep Hydras going with a little extra pierce armor.

Hydra favor cost: 28 -> 25
Hydra pierce armor: 50% -> 60%
Manticore cost: 300 wood, 25 favor -> 250 wood, 22 favor

On 12/24/2024 at 5:11 AM, Phenomenon said:

Pestilence probably needs the radius as what you said and also a tad more expensive on recasts.

Right, it only costs 50 to recast, that's a problem. But also it comes back just 1 minute after it expires. So I'd rather keep the potency and make it less frequent, and more expensive.

Pestilence recast cost: 50 -> 80 favor
Pestilence CD: 120s -> 180s

On 12/24/2024 at 5:11 AM, Phenomenon said:

One of the techs for Ares needs tapered down, the minor is just too good.

I really think Pestilence is what drives this minor god, the techs aren't that special. Trying not to stack nerfs too hard here as Zeus is quite a bit better than Hades.

On 12/24/2024 at 5:11 AM, Phenomenon said:

Either divine blood or golden apples needs nerfed slightly, aphro having both of those as well as a buffed curse would make her too good. I like the buffed curse, so i would combat that with a nerf to one of the two techs if i were you.

I could see a small nerf to Divine Blood's build rate on vills. Having all the map covered in buildings, especially with Poseidon is an issue.

Divine Blood build rate increase effect: +15% -> +10%

On 12/24/2024 at 5:11 AM, Phenomenon said:

Shafts of plague is probably too good

Let's wait with this one for an iteration at least, don't want to remove Poseidon/Hades with the first version!

[Phenomenon]

Egyptians:

1. Personally, overall I think Eggy is top of the civ groups as a whole

• Set's free animal spawns: food-heavy animals replaced with combat animals (disagree - I haven't seen issues with Set getting flooded, and i would personally like to just make animals to hunt wherever the pharaoh is (way more valuable), maybe reducing their favor cost slightly across the board)
• Set monument discount effect: -5% -> -10% (agree)
• Isis monument god power blocking radius: 25 -> 30 (agree)
• Serpents now controllable (agree)
• Serpent bonus vs Villagers: x0.1 -> none (agree)
• Serpent damage: 5 -> 9 (agree)
• Siege tower crush armor: 60% -> 75% (agree)
• Mercenary HP degradation: -2.5/s -> -1/s (agree)
• Mercenary train time: 1s -> 2s (agree)
• Mercenary Cavalry HP degradation: -4/s -> -2/s (agree)
• Mercenary Cavalry train time: 2s -> 3s (agree)
• Migdol Stronghold arrow damage: 8 -> 9 (agree)
• Locust Swarm recast cost: 75 -> 100 (agree)
• Roc HP: 600 -> 350 (agree)
• Roc speed: 5 -> 4.3 (agree)
• Roc cost: 150 gold, 5 favor -> 250 gold, 20 favor (agree)
• Roc can perform hot pickups, landing ability removed (agree)
• Sun-dried Mud Brick build time effect: -25% -> -10% (that's a hefty cut, maybe somewhere in the middle. I know this is supposed to compensate for the buffs above, but I think this tech specifically is really needed with the pop limits and build time buffs of other civs)
• Citadel CD: 30s -> 180s (disagree kind of - this might need to be higher even more since it's a population and recast thing. That or make it more expensive. 3 citadels by 10ish minutes is kind of broken)
• Ancestors recast cost: 100 -> 75 favor (agree)
• Scorpion Man HP: 500 -> 600 (agree)
• Nebty: now affects Son of Osiris (agree)
• Phoenix hack damage: 40 -> 60 (disagree - instead of hack I'd like to see even more crush/speed, make it a building/tc myth)
• Phoenix egg hatch time: 60s -> 30s (agree)

My suggestions:

• Reduce eclipse from 80 seconds to 60 seconds. This is a very powerful classical age GP already, 80 seconds is kind of insane with all that it gives you.
• Shifting sands is way too cheap to recast. Instead of 20 per recast, it should be 50 per recast. Honestly a CD increase on this as well (it basically costs you favor for 2 myth units if you take my suggestion to shift every 3 minutes, that's insane. Fixing this should fix the set abuse, and give ra a slight nerf that it needs)
• Reduce range slightly of Petsuchos. They're very hard to see because of their size and kill within a ranged army.
• Just 180 CD change to Citadel is not good enough. It's only 100 and 150 favor for your 2nd and 3rd. Like i said above, something more needs done with citadel, even at 180s it's broken.
• Expand scarab divine dmg range when killed
• Tone down mummy some, they're amazing vs Greek, Norse.
• Make Tornado recast on par with SoO recast and change from +5 to +50.
• Greatest of fifty brought down from 30% to 25%
• Tusks of Apedemak war elephant population reduction removed and change dmg and cost parts to 15%. The other tech already provides thoth with 50% and 100% train time increase for Isis and Set.

 

 

Edited December 27, 2024 by Phenomenon